Rinna , (edited )
@Rinna@lemm.ee avatar

As someone who is unironically into a lot of VR stuff and even owns a pricey headset myself, I did not understand the appeal from the features I've seen past looking """cool""". Even the stuff that looks at least somewhat fun or useful doesnt seem worth it considering the price, especially now that reviews are reporting there are basic features that cheaper headsets perform much better at and are way more comfortable.

Starkstruck ,

Fr, I love VR, but this headset is just Apple trying to cash in on the VR market without understanding what people actually like about VR.

Ghostalmedia ,
@Ghostalmedia@lemmy.world avatar

I think they totally understand that there is a legitimate mixed reality / AR use case that people have wanted addressed for decades, but the hardware has never been able to pull it off well.

If I could pop on a light weight headset, and have a desktop with infinite 4K monitors, with a high refresh rate, without breaking my wallet, I would 1000% buy that product.

The hardware isn’t there yet, but I’m glad to see people are investing in platforms that could get us there in a decade or two.

TheDarksteel94 ,

It has some neat features and ideas, but nothing I haven't seen in other products before. Definitely more polished, and it brings all of those big features together in one package. But for me, it's the price that kills it. Maybe Apple had a hunch that all of this might happen and they just wanted it out as a setup for the next version?

stoly ,

So...stupid people with too much money to burn jumped on something they neither wanted nor needed and then got bored.

Rediphile ,

Hard to call them stupid when they got to use it for free within the return window. Seems like a good deal. I agree with all the other points though.

neonred ,

Open Source and Open API or bust. Simple as that for me.

MiDaBa ,

Apple pitched the Vision Pro as if VR hadn't wasn't already a thing that's been around for a while. While the VP has some higher specs particularly in its display it lacks in areas like field of view, comfort, game selection and portability. The first group of people that would be interested are those who already own or have used other VR systems. They those people won't see the VP as such a jump. Especially considering it's locked to the Apples app store with not many VR options. The second group is composed of people who have been out of the loop and think this is the begining of VR. I think thats the camp more likely to return the unit once they realize it's just a novelty in its current state.

azenyr ,

The problem with AVP is that it constantly feels extremely lonely. The fun part about VR is playing stuff together, games, being in the same room even if others are in different countries, have funny full size avatars, interact in a "vr-chat" kind of way. VR is supposed to be a fun version of our world. AVP is extremely serious, too "professional" focused, and especially b o r i n g. All you do on AVP is exactly the same that you would do by yourself with your current devices already. Just even more isolated from the world. And even the most enthusiastic Apple users eventually get this feeling when using AVP. While stuff like Quest 3, Valve Index, PSVR2 all might look "cheap" and "not polished" at first, while using them all you get is "wooow" factor and fun. AVP, yes its well crafted and polished, but it does basically nothing and feels lonely inside it.

Honytawk ,

AVP, yes its well crafted and polished, but it does basically nothing and feels lonely inside it

Gilded cage sort of vibe, yes.

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

I keep reading AVP as Alien vs. Predator, which makes this hilarious. Sorry... that's on me.

AVP is extremely serious, too “professional” focused, and especially b o r i n g.

But what about the part where the Predator body-slams an Alien? That wasn't boring! :P

NigelFrobisher ,

Nah, me too. My A-Level Physics teacher had it on Atari Jaguar.

Eggyhead ,

I've been in the Apple ecosystem for pretty much most of my life, and I'm all for what the AVP is bringing to the table. However, one VR enthusiast Youtuber I watched recently (Thrillseeker) put down the most compelling argument against the AVP I've seen thus far. The AVP does well what all the other headsets don't, but the AVP also kind of sucks at what other headsets have learned to do well. At the price of the AVP, not only could you buy a Quest 3, but you'd have enough leftover to just build an entire VR Gaming rig to back it up. Then you'd have a setup exponentially more capable than what the AVP is offering.

thorbot ,

There’s a lot of salient points here, but here’s my perspective. I have a gaming rig and a high end headset (index) and it’s tied down to one room. The sensors are mounted on the wall and my gigantic PC isn’t going anywhere. The controllers are usually dead, the sensors disconnect when my cats pull the cords. It takes a while for anything to load up and my room has to remain clean and empty. To get a VR experience going it takes time and effort which often is too much for me. The only thing I’m going to do with that setup is play a VR game and I’ve already gotten bored of most of those. The Vision Pro can just go on anytime anywhere and I just gesture to use it. I can stream Steam Link from my gaming PC to allow me to game anywhere and AVP pairs with my Xbox controller. I can take the AVP to work and look at my Mac mini and start working in it. Sure, the setup you describe is more capable for gaming, but AVP fills a wider role, is more accessible, and just works each time I use it. It won’t replace my VR setup for high end VR gaming at home but it’s much more attractive to use regularly, at least for me personally.

DragonAce ,

Found the Apple marketing person.

thorbot , (edited )

Shit, you got me. How did you see through my clever ruse? I’ve spent 8 months commenting and posting to Lemmy in order to blend in, all for this very moment where I can say one tiny positive thing about a new piece of tech. My plans are foiled.

Mildmantis ,

That's a solid argument toward using an AVP vs a traditional PCVR set up.

... So why not just do that for a fraction of the price on the Quest 3? I do everything you listed on mine, I even take it with me when I travel without any perceived constraints. I, too, can use Steam Link (although I prefer Virtual Remote Desktop currently) and even found myself making some use of the new Xbox GamePass app, and yes, it also pairs with my controller, and my Logitech keyboard and mouse too.

I understand the AVP can fill a wider role than a standard PCVR gaming rig set up, but I feel what you describe as something to compare with the AVP is honestly kind of outdated.

thorbot ,

Eye tracking, hand gestures and resolution are superior on AVP. It accesses all my content already in the Apple ecosystem, has no noticeable latency when working from my Mac minis display. It does not require room setup and remembers the locations of my virtual displays all around my home or office. It can display all the spatial videos I’ve shot over the past year on my iPhone 15 pro. I also don’t trust facebook and refuse to have their data farming device scanning my every move. Yes, apples device also has access to that data, but I don’t believe they are allowing it to leave the Secure Enclave chip inside the AVP.

thorbot ,

Because Meta can suck my saggy man tits

Eggyhead , (edited )

I’m not really a fan of Facebook, but I’m kind of wanting a Quest 3 because the cost of the AVP and other headsets just reinforce how much of a value it must be. Maybe it’s just early days, but the AVP just doesn’t do enough of what I want from a headset at even half its price point.

I do want to see what an AV (non pro) will bring to the table, but I think Meta is in a better position to impress with their next Quest headset now that apple has laid their cards on the table. They could sell a quest 4 at twice the price of a quest 3, add in whatever new technologies that might afford, and still be insanely more affordable than an AVP.

thorbot ,

100% fair. The price on the AVP is insane compared to the competitors and definitely is not worth it right now unless you are evaluating the AVP for your clients or for programming apps.

daltotron ,

So, is VR actually good, or is it mostly just for wealthy silicon valley furries to hang out with each other in VRchat, like everyone used to do in second life? The only game that really comes to mind as being something that's even close to a killer app is beatsaber, and that's basically just DDR with your upper body. I really haven't seen much support, both in the way of games, and more importantly, in the way of, say, 3d modelling apps, or something to that effect. Utility software, stuff that's useful, but is specifically more convenient in virtual reality, stuff that might be benefited by the platform. But then, it's not really something I've looked into much.

Tattorack ,
@Tattorack@lemmy.world avatar

I can tell you straight up right now it's not just the wealthy furries that are hanging out in VRChat.

VRChat, and similar apps, is their ultimate escapism; they actually get to be and walk around as the character they want themselves to be. So most of the furries I know, some of them not even living in their own apartment, have spent time putting money aside to buy VR headsets complete with full motion setups. Those who really couldn't save up like that, and/or afford building a PC capable of handling VR, go for the cheapest option of buying a Quest.

Remember Ready Player One? Everyone is poor, living in pretty blegh conditions, yet many people have put a significant portion of their income aside to buy VR headsets? Those would be furries.

daltotron ,

damn, I didn't really know it was that intense, that serious. I guess I have, once again, underestimated the furries, my greatest rivals on this god forsaken planet.

nah but fr that makes a lot of sense. I would've just kind of thought, you know, stereotype of wealthy furries in IT shelling out for fursuits and shit, and furries in VR, put 2 and 2 together and blam, wow, the math checks out, but yeah, I do believe there's probably a good proportion of people for whom it's important enough to kind of get on top of it asap.

also VR headsets are getting cheaper than I thought, so that's another factor.

realitista ,
@realitista@lemmy.world avatar

Yes. If "Sadly It's Bradley"'s YouTube channel is anything to go by, furries (and maybe enterprises) will be the primary purchasers of the AVP. He's absolutely over the moon about it.

realitista ,
@realitista@lemmy.world avatar

There are amazing VR games like HL:Alex and Resident Evil. Not as many as we'd all like but then are out there, and I do believe as porting becomes easier, we will see more AAA titles like this. And honestly playing these games in VR puts their flatscreen versions to shame, so I do think this will become more popular going forward.

For AR we are just at the beginning. I think AVP has proved the concept that you could use such a device for productivity, but I think mass adoption will take many more iterations. But I am sure that bothe AR and VR have long futures ahead of them.

SwampYankee ,

VTOL VR is awesome too. The problem with a lot of games that support VR is they don't support the controllers to the same extent. Playing VR with an Xbox controller instead of the motion tracking Index controllers just ain't the same.

realitista ,
@realitista@lemmy.world avatar

I have only owned an oculus quest, and a PlayStation vr2, So I have never had this issue before

wjrii ,

So, I have no idea if it's any good, but PTC just released an OnShape AR app for AVP.

As an aside, have wanted to like OnShape, but I just can't get past the sloppy Terms of Use for the free version that appear to bar you from commercializing your designs (expected... several other vendors do this), but they allow anyone who downloads your public designs to commercialize them. That, and the fact that they charge three times as much for their subscription as Fusion does.

daltotron ,

That kinda sucks. I would expect more of your mainline 3D modelling things to be on top of this, or there to maybe be some sort of blender modification, some blender fork, that gets it to work in VR. Seems like kind of an obviously much better use case, to me, compared to memorizing a shit ton of hotkeys, and having to maybe buy one of those space mice they sell for the same price as a whole ass VR headset.

Honytawk ,

Have you tried VR? Because I couldn't tell from your comment.

If not, then you should try it somewhere. It is pretty neat tech that will blow you away the first time.

If yes, VR still has a way to go. It is out of its honeymoon phase, but the tech is getting better and more companies can see the advantages it can bring. Doubt we will see many simulators in the future with big giant screens, for example.

ManosTheHandsOfFate ,
@ManosTheHandsOfFate@lemmy.world avatar

I've tried Quest 2 once at a friend's house. I thought it was pretty neat but nothing about the experience made me want to run out and buy one or even plan to buy one in the future. I believe that unless good VR headsets come down in price significantly (sub $100) they're never going to be more than a niche hobby.

daltotron ,

I've tried it at a friend's house, quest 2, like the other guy, and I think an oculus at another friend's house, but a quest 2 more recently. It was probably due to game selection, but it was kind of underwhelming, personally. headset was also way too heavy for me.

I dunno, I was more impressed when I used a wii back in 2009 or whatever, when I was like 7. Partially because I was a kid, probably, partially because wii sports is based, but I also think there's something to be said of the natural symbiosis between motion controls, couch co-op, and a shared screen, even if there's a lot of inherent limitations to that approach in terms of game design. I might be falling behind all of that in terms of the internet being the new couch co-op, though.

I also think the lack of easy, built in locomotion is something that probably needs to be solved, because it seems like a pretty big limitation in terms of game design and immersion, and I also wanna bring up haptic feedback again because I like haptic feedback and find it useful but nobody else does and it has no support. I think it might help.

I also haven't really seen many devs taking advantage of the platform's actual like, capabilities. I've seen more devs try to recreate things as they exist in the real world almost 1 to 1, and almost constantly in first person, instead of devs that are like, okay, we have head tracking, we have active motion controls in both hands, we have 3D capable perspective, what can we do with all of that? I haven't seen many games that are playing with that in a more abstract way. Something like ping pong, for instance, would kind of make a lot of sense, when you look at it from the angle of, what are the specific capabilities are of the platform. You could make a lot of interesting perspective based puzzle games, like echochrome on the PSP, I think that would be worth pursuing.

As for future capabilites, I really have no idea. I think we've kind of achieved optimal pixel density for whatever screens we might employ, right, mostly as evidenced by the smartphone market (though we might see some innovations there, I really don't know). I think the main limitation now would probably be how optics are designed, which seems like kind of a harder problem to deal with. I'd like to see phased array optics with lasers and holograms and stuff become a thing, but that's still quite a ways off.

Chickenstalker ,

Can't use it for games. Can't use it for porn. What is it for?

nutsack ,

Wait why couldn't you use it for porn

UsernameIsTooLon ,

3D VR porn. You can still watch 2D pornhub porn.

nutsack ,

3D VR porn it's just a matter of having a media player that can play the video files

UsernameIsTooLon ,

Easier said than done. Apple likes to moderate every app and there's 0 sideloading.

nutsack ,

I'm always glad to see another VR headset enter the marketplace and compete a little bit. I'm not really an Apple fan boy and I wouldn't buy this, but the MacBook display feature looks pretty good to me. this is probably how I would use it 100% of the time.

UsernameIsTooLon ,

Oh yea, credit where credit is due. Apple products are always engineering marvels. But man you can do so much more for almost 1/10th of the cost.

ChairmanMeow ,
@ChairmanMeow@programming.dev avatar

Meh, lots of Apple products have heat dissipation issues. Most notably some of the recent macbooks had that issue iirc.

They're good, but some of the design choices force some hefty technical compromises.

nutsack ,

you can do so much more for almost 1/10th of the cost.

I don't think that's the case here.

thorbot ,

It can be side loaded actually

bomberesque1 ,

Build it and they will cum

kjo ,
@kjo@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

I just gotta say that's a really great comeback 😂

Honytawk ,

Why doesn't it support 3D VR porn?

Most of those are just video's aren't they? Can't the Apple glasses run videos?

UsernameIsTooLon ,

Not just porn, but 3D videos in general are stereoscopic videos where it's side by side. They look like this. Without something proper to split the video across your eyes, you just see this 2D video floating in space rather than get the full 3D experience.

thorbot ,

It doesn’t support it out of the box but it’s just a computer… you install the media player that supports that.

Blackmist ,

You can do that on a normal screen though.

Vast_Emptiness ,

For showing off. Of course.

thorbot ,

It runs Steam Link very well and has a number of built in games too. And it runs porn great, just not the stereoscopic videos by default, but you can sideload an app for that too.

Blackmist ,

Yeah, but surely you'd want actual VR games, rather than just Steam Link to a big virtual screen.

Half Life Alyx is a great game, but there's no way it would ever come to this headset just because of the lack of VR controllers.

thorbot ,

I played Alyx already twice through and have no desire to play it again. I have a valve index and a gaming PC for those experiences. The AVR most definitely won't replace those games, but they are few and far in between right now.

potentiallynotfelix ,
@potentiallynotfelix@iusearchlinux.fyi avatar

Called it.

werefreeatlast ,

Here's an application...every fridge would have a visor on the door. Stick your face in the visor and you'll be able to see the fridge from the webcam in front of it.... including your self!

PhilMcGraw ,

Why not just have a VR fridge app that connects remotely to cameras in your fridge? Or even better some ML shit that would identify what is in your fridge.

werefreeatlast ,

Because that's not ridiculous. But what about an app where you control a little robot that you have to crawl around the fridge to investigate and discover what's inside?

Honytawk ,
aluminium ,

Apple deserves to be humbled for once!

gaifux ,

Apple sucks.

Matriks404 ,

I dislike Apple, but this is the way future will like. AR (and maybe VR, but who knows) will definitely be amazing in a decade or so. BUT I think some people will still stick to smartphones, especially ones who don't want to spend their whole day with technology and social media.

I am definitely buying an AR headset, as long as it's affordable and can replace at least half of the tasks I do on my computer/phone. The AR device with Windows 11 and computing power of standard computer would be just fucking amazing, and I wouldn't go back.

MrSpArkle ,

Microsoft barely made a PC interface, they’re the last ones i would expect make a proper AR interface.

OrderedChaos ,

Aren't they removing the AR they built into the OS? I swear I read recently that they gave up on their customers that bought their headset so people that have it are forced to stay on an old version of windows just to use them.

Everyday3671 ,

Microsoft’s game plan seems to be:

  1. Sell a cool idea, halfheartedly.
  2. Abandon the idea.
  3. Wait until someone else done it right.
  4. Ripe them off / play catch up.

It was exactly like that for Windows on ARM.

In other words, regardless of whether you like/hate Apple, if the Vision Pro does not success, then there probably won’t be any further investment in the space from MS either.

OrderedChaos ,

I don't mind any of the companies when they have tech that does a job really well. Sadly it seems that they all have this collective idea that anything they've done well is not worth maintaining at some point. I'm neither a Linux, windows, or Mac fan. And each have their strengths. You just pick the poison while it's available to fill a need.

Matriks404 , (edited )

Not sure what do you mean by PC interface. Do you mean interface between user and computer? (which has nothing to do with software) Or like GUI in an operating system?

If by "PC interface" you mean GUI, then I still don't get you, because there's real alternative to Windows UI in any desktop operating system last time I checked. Sure Apple has macOS with its simple UI, and may be good for users that need to do only basic tasks, but if you need to have powerful (and in some parts customizable, although Unix desktops like KDE or Xfce may be better suited for max customization) UI with great UX for power users and without need to get to command line often (like you do on Linux) nothing beats Windows.

sacredfire ,

I don’t know, when we start talking about power users my mind goes to developers and most seem to not like windows. At least that has been my experience. Most of us prefer unix based systems, primarily because we have to use it to interact with like almost every server anyway. And of course I’m not just talking about different Linux distos, Mac is essentially Unix based and is in heavy use in a lot of shops.

Matriks404 ,

Yeah, as for development I'd say Linux (or any Unix-like) is more suited for that, especially when you have really great shell, development utilities and awesome package managers, and the overall system design is good for that. Also some stuff is just faster to do in command line, I could never see myself using git graphically for example, as doing so only gives me more headaches. But for most stuff I prefer GUI, because GUI's tend to have common design choices, and you can generally figure it out in few minutes, while for CLI utilities anything goes, some have built-in interactive prompts, some incompatible syntax, there's sometimes steep learning curve, and list goes on.

MrSpArkle ,

Microsoft puts ads in the start menu. I could go into a deeper critique, but ultimately that is the canary in the coal mine. Any company with a structure capable of shipping that feature is fucking busted in terms
of user experience and ui design.

Matriks404 ,

I don't really use start menu, nor have ads in my OS (may be regional thing), but that's a good point.

chiliedogg ,

Windows is actively removing AR support with an upcoming update.

june ,

I think they mean a full windows OS for AR, which doesn’t currently exist.

xthexder ,
@xthexder@l.sw0.com avatar

Hololens 2 still exists and runs a highly modified version of Windows, so it does sort of exist. But obviously there's no chance of running desktop apps on a Hololens.

chiliedogg ,

Hololens is what they're discontinuing support for and removing from future updates to the OS.

Matriks404 , (edited )

Well, that's kinda stupid on their part, but I bet they will be rejoining AR race later though, probably too late while Apple and Google creates good AR platforms with massive support of 3rd parties. And I expect Google (or, ekhm, Alphabet?) to show something like that in next few years.

Still, as for Windows AR devices, I expect to there being some 3rd party ones in ~10 years, that have computing power of desktop PC's we had yesterday or we have today. And we can already see that even mid-budget mobile devices can run heavy desktop environments (like Windows or some Linux desktops (like GNOME and KDE)) with no issues whatsoever, this is just going to expand into AR devices.

ExLisper ,

Flying cars will be the future but I wouldn't buy a flying car today.

Brain-computer interfaces will be the future but I wouldn't implant a chip in my brain today.

Personal AI assistants will be the future but I wouldn't pay $350 for ChatGPT today.

Lot's of things will be great in the future. Bringing it up in the context of existing, silly products is a bit pointless.

danielfgom ,
@danielfgom@lemmy.world avatar

I'm not surprised. Apple Vision Pro is junk. Zuckerberg released a short video giving his opinion and he's right::Quest is way better in every way and 7 times cheaper.

The Quest is lighter, has no cables, can do AR and VR, has better controllers, has way more apps and games and costs 7(!) times less.

The Vision Pro is bulky and heavy, cords get in the way, the battery only lasts 2 hours, you need special lenses if you use glasses, it barely has any apps and it's watching you all the time.

Apple should really be embarrassed at how bad this product is after years of R&D and millions spent. They can't even compete against Quest. All they had to do was copy it but they couldn't even manage that.

What a joke!

Plopp ,

Have you used them both?

danielfgom ,
@danielfgom@lemmy.world avatar

No. Who has that kind of money? Lol

SpaceMan9000 ,

All those things also apply to the quest besides the controllers and cables...

Bandicoot_Academic ,

Can you use the Vision Pro while wearing glasses? I can use my Quest without special lenses because i can just wear my glasses while using it.

MrSpArkle ,

Quest is better in every way

Zuckerberg can’t even buy an SOC to put in the quest to compete with Apple. Qualcomm doesn’t make one. So it can’t be better in every way.

It can be better subjectively to some people. But objectively the Vision Pro has specs other manufacturers literally won’t be able to do for at least 2-3 years, and not for 500 bucks.

danielfgom ,
@danielfgom@lemmy.world avatar

The SOC isn't the whole story. The user experience is what counts. But Qualcomm do hehe a chip as powerful as Apples. Zuck should just buy that

MrSpArkle ,

They only recently announced a laptop chip that beats the m2 in SOME benchmarks, but at a higher power draw, but it is not shipping in any product. Mind you Apple is on M3.

danielfgom ,
@danielfgom@lemmy.world avatar

Apple is ahead but Qualcomm is not far behind. Plus even the current chips are already powerful enough for this stuff. A Snapdragon Gen 3 should be able to power a headset I would have thought.

DingoBilly ,

They're two different market segments. The Quest is definitely more practical for most people, but to just day it's better in every way is a disservice to the fact the tech in the Vision Pro is the best version of VR out there. It's just way too expensive.

BurnSquirrel ,

Oh but it's not though right? I'm not big into that space but there are professional VR headsets that costs several thousands of dollars, like apples, but still lead it in tech, which to me seem to leave apple's device in this weird cost middle ground between professional headsets like varjo and consumer headsets like oculus.

Honytawk ,

Eh, it also doesn't support much in the way of software, so I wouldn't call it the best version of VR just yet.

poo ,
@poo@lemmy.world avatar

Sorry you're getting downvoted by crying Apple fanboys lol

danielfgom ,
@danielfgom@lemmy.world avatar

Lol. Thanks. But I take don't give a crap about up or downvotes. I literally never look at that ever. I just want to get my opinion out and see what other people's opinions are.

But you're right, it's probably the isheep....

JeeBaiChow ,

The influencers got their videos, I guess.

moistclump ,

Yeh I’d be curious if these people ever intended to hang on to it or off it was just for the grams.

Patches ,

It was always for the gram. Influences don't actually buy anything.

kevincox ,
@kevincox@lemmy.ml avatar

Or just to try it out. I would totally like to try one on for a few days.

iquanyin ,
@iquanyin@lemmy.world avatar

some are reviewers, i betcha.

Plopp ,

Yaaah.

Kbobabob ,

Some? Probably most. The others are social media "influencers" making it look like someone would actuality want to buy it.

downhomechunk ,
@downhomechunk@midwest.social avatar

Don't most reviewers get their sets for free?

Patches ,

That depends on the company that is selling the product, and the reputation of the reviewer.

IGN always give 9/10 for every game they review so they are high on the priority list to get review copies. But they won't get any if the Developer /Producer isn't interested in giving any out.

I don't think Apple is giving away 3500 devices for free to a long list of people. Most reviews I see are reviewing based on an extended store demo.

iquanyin ,
@iquanyin@lemmy.world avatar

not the freelance ones, or not always anyway. i think you’re right about the ones that wrote for tech blogs.

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